


Organizing Gundam: Internal Consistency vs. User Experience

by Kalloway



Category: Gundam & Related Fandoms, Gundam 00 & Anno Domini Gundam, Gundam SEED & Cosmic Era Gundam, Gundam Wing & After Colony Gundam
Genre: AO3 Tags - Freeform, Essay, Meta
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2016-03-05
Updated: 2016-03-05
Packaged: 2018-05-24 21:47:32
Rating: Not Rated
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 1
Words: 3,789
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/6167875
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Kalloway/pseuds/Kalloway
Summary: <blockquote class="userstuff">
              <p>A meta essay discussing how Gundam fandoms are inconsistently named, defined, and wrangled on the Archive of Our Own, including documentation of support requests for corrections.</p>
            </blockquote>





	Organizing Gundam: Internal Consistency vs. User Experience

Navigating Gundam content on AO3 isn't always easy and hasn't been. I think this is due to a lot of factors, including the structure of the archive and wrangler ignorance regarding extended canon. I can't imagine anyone would want to bog down the archive with fandom trees that don't need to be made and I also don't expect anyone to know everything about any given fandom.

There is a very thorough and generally accurate Gundam Wikia for anything normal Wikipedia can't handle. I believe for non-academic purposes, both should qualify as generally reliable sources of information, though there are some variations as far as translations on character names, a point slightly beyond the scope of this piece. 

Back in 2012, I left a comment on ' Introducing the Category Change Workgroup!', an AO3 News post discussing potential category changes, with comments about how difficult it can be to browse within the Anime & Manga section of AO3 because there was no specific fandom naming pattern being used and mixing up English and Japanese alphabetization and using title translations even when the localized series didn't. [1]

   
_"2. I mostly browse the Anime & Manga category, and it can be a very frustrating category to browse. While it's nice to see full Japanese titles used for fandoms, they are used with no consistency and because they often start with a different letter, they pop up at completely different places in the listing than I'd expect._

_For example - Yukikaze. Localized as 'Yukikaze' on both the DVDs and novels, it's listed as 'Sentou Yousei Yukikaze | Battle Fairy Snowstorm'. I'm not sure I've ever seen the English translated title used anywhere except for on a couple of sites selling related model kits. So while my first thought would be to look in the Y's, obviously I'd have to resort to CTRL+F if I even thought it might be somewhere else after checking the Y's. "_

Further, I commented on how scattered the Gundam fandoms are:

  
_"The categories for Gundam are even worse. Some of the various Gundam series are listed as Gundam XYZ. Zeta Gundam is hiding in the Z's. When I first thought to look outside the G's, I looked in the M's, since the series is generally localized as 'Mobile Suit Gundam'. The only one there is Mobile Fighter G Gundam. And then the K's, since the Japanese is 'Kidou Senshi'... Well, for most of them. "_

  
Since then, 'Mobile Fighter G Gundam' has been changed to 'G Gundam' and moved to the G's. There are two Gundams in the M's. The current (as of this essay) series, Iron-Blooded Orphans, appears as '機動戦士ガンダム 鉄血のオルフェンズ | Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans' and appears in the G's, not the M's. 

My comment in 2012 caused the creation of a Fandom Category called 'Gundam & Related Fandoms', also located in the G's. To date, the only sub tags have 'Gundam' in their names. [2] It does, however, encompass the whole franchise as represented on AO3. 

I commented, privately, that I wasn't sure what would qualify as 'Related Fandoms' aside from G-Savior, a live action movie set within the Universal Century timeline, and Gaia Gear, an alternate-history version of the end of the Universal Century. Possibly also related are the Super Robot Wars series of video games, which often feature various Gundam series amongst their massive crossovers. Other than that, I still don't really know what qualifies. 

Gundam, as a long-running franchise, can be difficult to pin down and organize. What started as a single continuity - Universal Century - spun off multiple series unrelated except by common themes and the use of the titular mecha. Aside from anime, there are dozens of manga sidestories, novels, photonovels, video games, and even model kit supplements that all build onto canon. Each manga, novel, etc. can feature an original cast with an original story telling a part of in-verse history. 

The question, then, is whether a side-story, spin-off, or additional canon in a different medium can and should be counted as a different fandom worthy of its own common tag on AO3. 

AO3 has been consistently inconsistent with its decisions regarding this question. In March of 2013, I posted "Public Safety", a story pairing Rondo Mina Sahaku (who originates in Gundam SEED Astray and never appears in the main series) with Cagalli Yula Athha, who is one of the main characters of the Gundam SEED anime (and who has cameos in the Astray storyline). [3] I tagged the story as both 'Gundam SEED' and 'Gundam SEED Astray' but fully expected Astray to become a synonym of 'Gundam SEED'. It was instead made into a subtag and also started showing on the main Anime & Manga page. 

Gundam SEED Astray is a manga, novel, and photonovel side-story to the Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny anime series. It has numerous sequels with fairly frequent new entries. It features an original cast with frequent cameos from main story characters in early entries. 

In AO3's eyes, Gundam SEED Astray is a related but different enough fandom to warrant its own tag.

Gundam 00P is a photonovel and novel side-story to the Gundam 00 anime series. It features an original main cast with some minor characters who are also minor characters in the Gundam 00 anime and is also set at a different point in the universe's timeline. 

However, when user taichara posted "First Impressions" as part of the Parallels exchange, and tagged it as 'Mobile Suit Gundam 00P', the tag was then made a synonym of Gundam 00. [4][5] It had been nominated and assigned as Mobile Suit Gundam 00P. [6]

It was again nominated as a unique fandom for the Cockpit Faceplant exchange. [7]

Taichara sent in a support ticket, in July 2015, about the tag synning during Parallels: [8]

  
_"This tag is flat wrong. In fact, both of these instances are flat wrong._

_This fic I have written (which you may or may be able to see, as it has been written for an exchange):_

_http://archiveofourown.org/collections/Parallels_2015/works/4325040_

_is for the fandom Mobile Suit Gundam 00P. This light novel series is NOT the same series as the anime Gundam 00, with a virtually unique cast -- and is now showing as "Gundam 00" in the Parallels_2015 tagset, which is both completely inaccurate and ALSO misleading for anyone in the exchange who may be expecting fic for Gundam 00."_

  
She received two responses, one in August 2015 and one in September 2015. 

The first simply said the message was being passed along:

  
_"We have contacted the volunteer tag wranglers for the fandom to ask them about why they have made all those tags synonymous. We will let you know when they answer!"_

  
And the second, more than a month later:

  
_"Hi again!_

_The volunteer wranglers for the fandom have analyzed the situation, and have detailed that:_

_They have marked common freeforms/‘additional tags’ for Frozen Teardrop and Endless Waltz, and will do it for any other related media. They consider that the book, OVAs, movie, and manga are all direct prequels/sequels/missing scenes of the main storyline; i.e. they’re set in the same universe.  
The same has been done with Gundam 00P, as it’s a prequel._

_They feel this represents best the structure of the canon and the way that canon is being interpreted by the majority of users posting to those fandoms, as only very few use differentiated fandom tags, and instead tag for it in the Additional Tags category."_

  
The situation with Frozen Teardrop is very similar and will be detailed further on. It was impossible to remove mention of it from the response without losing important context.

As for Gundam 00P, it was allowed into Yuletide nominations as a separate fandom based on an evidence post by myself: [9]

  
_"Fandom: Mobile Suit Gundam 00P_

_Possible issue with the fandom/characters: A prequel/side-story to the larger-but-still-eligble fandom Gundam 00. 00P features a largely different cast (there are a couple of minor characters who appear in both series) set at a different point in the timeline. It ran originally as a photonovel in Dengeki Hobby Magazine and was collected into four full-color mooks before being expanded significantly and published as two black-and-white novels. None of the original-to-00P cast appears in the Gundam 00 anime or any of its manga/light novel adaptations._

_Evidence for why this fandom/characters should be considered eligible:_

_Gundam 00P has been made a synonym for Gundam 00 on AO3 so there is no easy way to filter works. 00P was never officially localized into English and many fans of Gundam 00 have never heard of it or its characters. I am arguing not just for 00P to be eligible but as a separate entity from Gundam 00 due to differences in time period, medium, and characters._

_(As a note, I do know that AO3 support was contacted over the synonym issue without successful resolution. The Gundam meta-fandom tags are unfortunately a bit of a disaster due to related-but-separate canons and the various forms of titling in the anime/manga section of the site.)"_

  
When it was synned into Gundam 00 upon approval, I requested for it to be separated again, which was granted, along with a new tag, 'Gundam 00P' which was not immediately synned back into Gundam 00, though it was before Yuletide reveals. [10] 

If Gundam SEED Astray, despite taking place at the same time as the main anime canon, was split off into a separate top-level fandom (and a sub-tag of Gundam SEED, though it shows on the main Anime & Manga page), as was Gundam SEED Destiny, a direct sequel to Gundam SEED, why can't a prequel set in a different medium be a sub-tag and top-level fandom? 

Number of works doesn't seem to be an affective quality - Gundam SEED Astray was split off with only one work. 

If, quoting from the response from support, it has to do with each new story being "all direct prequels/sequels/missing scenes of the main storyline; i.e. they’re set in the same universe", then there should only be one Gundam SEED category. There should also only be one Mobile Suit Gundam category for all Universal Century works, instead of ten separate top-level fandoms all appearing in the Anime & Manga category, plus a tag for 'Universal Century' that they all fall under. 

In December, I hosted a small collection to reveal on Christmas Eve for anyone who wouldn't be available to give giftfics on Christmas. Taichara took advantage of it with a gift for user eliyes, which taichara tagged as 'Gundam SEED Destiny Astray', which is the sequel to Gundam SEED Astray'. Instead of being synned to either Gundam SEED Astray or Gundam SEED Destiny, it was synned to 'Gundam SEED'. Both taichara and I sent messages to support. I was hoping to have it corrected before the collection went live. 

My message is as follows, sent December 16th, 2015:

  
_"Subfandom synned incorrectly_

_For some reason, 'Gundam SEED Destiny Astray' was made a synonym of 'Gundam SEED'_

_http://archiveofourown.org/tags/Gundam%20SEED_

_when it would have made much more sense to add it to either 'Gundam SEED Destiny' or 'Gundam SEED Astray' (or both), since 'Gundam SEED Destiny Astray' is more closely related to both of these series than the original 'Gundam SEED'._

_Gundam SEED Destiny Astray is a multi-volume manga, novel, and photo-novel series presenting a separate story taking place in the same Cosmic Era universe of Gundam SEED."_

  
Instead, neither of us heard back until January 14th, 2016, when we received identical responses: 

  
_"Apologies for the delay in the reply to your question about the Gundam SEEDfandoms. We’re aware of the apparent inconsistencies between the various Gundam fandoms. Our Gundam team is currently discussing the best way to resolve the issue, but as there are a large number of variously connected fandoms, the discussion is still ongoing. We apologize for the confusion in the interim."_ [11] 

  
On February 9th, 2016, I posted 'Pancakes', which features characters from the Gundam SEED side-story Stargazer. [12] AO3 offered me 'Gundam SEED Stargazer', which isn't actually something that exists. It's a nickname or shorthand way of referring to 'Mobile Suit Gundam SEED C.E. 73: Stargazer', which I used as the fandom tag. 

On February 21st, I noticed that it had been synned to 'Gundam SEED Stargazer', instead of the shorthand title being synned to the canonical title[12]. I sent a support message as follows:

  
_"Incorrect Fandom Tag_

_"Mobile Suit Gundam SEED C.E. 73: Stargazer has been made a synonym of Gundam SEED Stargazer. Works and bookmarks tagged with Mobile Suit Gundam SEED C.E. 73: Stargazer will show up in Gundam SEED Stargazer's filter."_

_There's no such thing as 'Gundam SEED Stargazer' - it's an incomplete version of the correct title. Here is its Wikipedia article as reference:_

_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Suit_Gundam_SEED_C.E._73:_Stargazer  
Thank you in advance for the correction."_

  
On February 23rd, I received a response from support:

  
_"Thanks for asking about this Gundam fandom name. The Gundam wrangling team are currently having a discussion regarding the structure of the entire fandom tag tree, including names and links. They’ve taken your feedback for consideration for their final decisions! If you have any other thoughts, let us know."_

  
Two months after the inquiry about the mis-synned Gundam SEED Destiny Astray tag, the Gundam wrangling team is still discussing the structure of the fandom tag tree. 

They're apparently going to consider using canon titles, instead of fandom shorthand.

As mentioned previously, another Gundam series with a disaster in its tags is Gundam Wing. 

'New Mobile Report Gundam Wing: Frozen Teardrop', referred to hereafter as Frozen Teardrop, is a thirteen-volume novel set in the future of the Gundam Wing anime. It features both a returning and original cast, many using different names from the names they used in Gundam Wing. 

In the same message to support regarding Gundam 00P, user taichara said:

  
_"Similarly, these fics of mine:_

_http://archiveofourown.org/works/2221809_  
http://archiveofourown.org/works/1762697  
http://archiveofourown.org/works/1762785 

_Are for Gundam Wing Frozen Teardrop, which is a light novel series in the future of the AC timeline and NOT the anime Gundam Wing, the sinking of FT into the Gundam Wing tag causing problems with character identification among other things."_

  
With Frozen Teardrop synned to Gundam Wing, characters have also been synned incorrectly with multiple characters being synned to one tag in more than one instance.

Also within and synned to Gundam Wing is 'Gundam Wing Dual Story: G-Unit | Gundam: The Last Outpost'. Localized without explicit reference to Gundam Wing in the title, the introduction flat out states that while it happens during the events of Gundam Wing, it's an independent story and no knowledge of Gundam Wing is necessary to enjoy it. 

Because of the synning, it's not possible to say how many works for G-Unit/Last Outpost exist. 

The support response quoted previously notes:

  
_"They have marked common freeforms/‘additional tags’ for Frozen Teardrop and Endless Waltz, and will do it for any other related media."_

And:

  
_"They feel this represents best the structure of the canon and the way that canon is being interpreted by the majority of users posting to those fandoms, as only very few use differentiated fandom tags, and instead tag for it in the Additional Tags category."_

  
The tag for 'Endless Waltz' is actually synned to 'Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz' and is used by one work. [13] The 'Gundam Wing: Frozen Teardrop' tag is used by three. [14] There is an unknown number of works in the Gundam Wing section for G-Unit/Last Outpost. There are over 3400 works in the Gundam Wing section at present. [15]

How is 'majority of users' being defined? I doubt that can be answered.

As for the structure of the fandom tag tree, which has been two months in discussion already, there are two potential solutions, aside from leaving things the way they are with fandoms incorrectly synned, no internal consistency, and fandom shorthand names being used over canon. 

The first solution is the one presented earlier where there are only top-level tags by overall universe. All of Universal Century gets synned together no matter where in the 200 years of in-verse story a fanwork is set. It's all the same, according to the wranglers, except when it isn't, also according to the wranglers. 

All of Cosmic Era Gundam, which is the universe reference for Gundam SEED, would be merged as well. 

This is not an ideal solution for obvious reasons including both previous precedent and also what it could mean for other, completely unrelated fandoms. 

The second solution involves research on behalf of the wranglers and possibly interacting with the fandom being wrangled. If two months of discussion haven't yielded a solution, taking the questions to the fanbase would be a good next step. 

When I received support's response that the Gundam SEED Destiny Astray mis-syn wouldn't be fixed, I vented on Fail Fandom Anon about it: [16]

  
_"AO3 Support finally got back to me, after a month, about a mis-synned fandom tag in a small fest I ran in December. Not only is the author not getting potential hits because their fic is showing up in the wrong place, but all I got was a canned response saying they're discussing how to resolve the issue._

_How about fixing it? That would be nice."_

  
An anonymous wrangler popped up asking questions and I explained the entire situation in detail. To avoid long chunks of quoted text, please feel free to follow the source link and return at your leisure. 

What I suggested was as follows:

  
_"See, this is where the meta-Gundam inconsistencies begin, because for, like, Universal Century (First Gundam, etc.) there is a 'Universal Century Gundam' listing under the 'U's on the main anime/manga page. But for Gundam SEED (etc.), in my personal experience, while it's correctly 'Cosmic Era Gundam', nobody really calls it that in the fandom. The whole thing is generally called 'Gundam SEED' and then possibly a qualifier like "Do you like Gundam SEED?" "Yeah, but I didn't like the end of Destiny.""_

  
_"Actually, do you see the 'Gundam SEED & Cosmic Era Gundam' tag? I suggested that for Chocolate Box so I could cross-nominate characters who exist at the same points in the same timeline without needing to use three different fandoms (with characters prone to wandering). It would be the most-correct meta-tag to inform visitors what is in that category._

_In my opinion, the most-correct version would be something like:_

_Gundam SEED & Cosmic Era Gundam (as a meta-tag)_  
\--Gundam SEED  
\--Gundam SEED Destiny  
\--Gundam SEED Astray (all as sub-tags which each appear on the main anime/manga page)  
(possibly a corrected version of poor Stargazer here) 

_then any Astray sequel (X Astray, VS Astray, Destiny Astray, Delta Astray, Destiny Astray R, Astray B, Frame Astrays no I am not making any of these up and there are more) would be synned to Astray."_

  
Similar trees could be applied to Gundam 00:

Gundam 00 & Anno Domini Gundam  
\--Gundam 00  
\--Gundam 00P  
(--Gundam 00F, when something is posted for it, since it occupies the same territory with Gundam 00 that Astray does in Gundam SEED)

and Gundam Wing, with apologies for using shorthand names:

Gundam Wing & After Colony Gundam  
\--Gundam Wing  
\--Gundam Wing: Frozen Teardrop  
\--G-Unit/Last Outpost

Universal Century might require more user input, but the current tree is actually fairly accurate:

Universal Century  
\-- Gundam ZZ  
\-- Zeta Gundam  
\-- 機動戦士ガンダム 逆襲のシャア | Gundam: Char's Counterattack  
\-- 機動戦士ガンダム | Mobile Suit Gundam (TV)  
\-- Gundam Unicorn  
\-- 機動戦士ガンダム 第08MS小隊 | Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team  
\-- 機動戦士Vガンダム | Victory Gundam  
\-- 機動戦士クロスボーン・ガンダム ゴースト | Crossbone Gundam: Ghost  
\-- Gundam F91  
\-- 機動戦士ガンダム MSイグルー | Gundam MS IGLOO

I would personally remove the '(TV)' from the Mobile Suit Gundam tag, since there are compilation movies and multiple manga retellings that would otherwise fit under the same tag, and make sure all the titles are using the same kanji/katakana scheme and also the most correct version of the title and not fandom shorthand. 

The last statement applies to all listed universes, actually. Consistency in tagging is the end goal, after all, as is accuracy in tagging. 

So, in conclusion, the important points are that:

At present, there is no internal consistency in how AO3 divides and wrangles Gundam-related tags and decides what 'makes a fandom'. Multiple support requests have been met with commentary that issues are being discussed with no immediate resolution available for small errors. 

Upwards of two months have been spent internally discussing how to wrangle the meta-fandom with no results and no visible move to ask the users effected how they would like the archive to sort their work when they're the ones who would know best. 

And at one point, support even replied that a wrangler said everything within one universe should be under one tag, with no sub-tags. Applied consistently over the entire site, it would put all of Star Wars into one single tag with reduced ability to filter. Same with the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Star Trek, and hundreds of others. 

If the wrangling volunteers are at a loss, it's time to address the users and ask what they'd like and how they use the Archive. And they need to be receptive to suggestions and look at multiple viewpoints as well as what would make for the best user experience. 

It all needs to be done consistently, with attention to canon detail/research, and a willingness to fix errors when they occur. This should not be too much to ask from the Archive of Our Own. 

 

  
As an endnote, please feel free to add any discussion, incidents, questions, commentary, suggestions, and whatnot in the comments. Please feel free to explore the sources listed below. 

 

  
Sources & Notes:  
[1] http://archiveofourown.org/comments/1638736  
[2] http://archiveofourown.org/tags/Gundam%20*a*%20Related%20Fandoms  
[3] http://archiveofourown.org/works/735879  
[4] http://archiveofourown.org/works/4325040  
[5] http://archiveofourown.org/tags/Gundam%2000  
[6] http://archiveofourown.org/tag_sets/736  
[7] http://archiveofourown.org/tag_sets/818  
[8] Personal correspondence. E-mail contents have not been altered, though they have been split into sections to illustrate situations within multiple fandoms.  
[9] http://yuletide-admin.dreamwidth.org/17372.html?thread=104412#cmt104412  
[10] http://yuletide-admin.dreamwidth.org/19798.html?thread=125014#cmt125014  
[11] Both responses received share the spacing typo.  
[12] http://archiveofourown.org/tags/Mobile%20Suit%20Gundam%20SEED%20C*d*E*d*%2073:%20Stargazer  
[13] http://archiveofourown.org/tags/Gundam%20Wing:%20Endless%20Waltz/works  
[14] http://archiveofourown.org/tags/Gundam%20Wing:%20Frozen%20Teardrop/works  
[15] http://archiveofourown.org/tags/Gundam%20Wing/works  
[16] http://fail-fandomanon.dreamwidth.org/177383.html?thread=963580647#cmt963580647

**Author's Note:**

> All sources current as of February 25th, 2016. If I've done anything terrible with the formatting, do let me know and I'll fix it ASAP.
> 
> Also, eternal thanks to taichara for, well, everything really, including invaluable assistance with this piece.


End file.
